Am I a Ninja?
So, yesterday I was blogging about some of the moonkin gear changes I was going to make, and how I have horrible luck getting the trinkets I want. I thought I was going to be able to equip my Sundial of the Exiled, but I had forgotten I had disenchanted it months ago when I got my Eye of the Broodmother, and I tried to get a GM to restore it, to no avail. Instead of farming more heroics for badges, I decided to run a PuG OS25 to see if the Illustration would drop. For the record, I have run OS25 every single week since the WoTLK release and have seen it drop twice — once before I formed my guild and the GM of my old guild got it, and another time we loot counciled it to one of my officers since he had a blue trinket equipped.
Anyways, so I was on my guild vent, hanging out with e-friends, guildies and non-guildies. I told everyone beforehand that I would pay 2,000 gold to anyone who won the roll if they passed the trinket to me, should it drop. I’ve paid for loot I really wanted before — I bought my T7.5 chest from the only other moonkin in a VoA25, I paid gold for a Maly25 run from a guild when WoTLK first came out and I got the key off of Sapphiron, etc. Gold comes easy to me, so when something drops that I want, I usually try to buy it off the winner.
None of the people in my vent won the roll, so I whispered the guy who won the roll, a PuG lock, offering to buy the trinket from him for 2k gold. He declined with a simple NTY. The master looter also tried offering him 5k for the trinket, which he also declined. At any rate, a mage in my guild rolled on the trinket, won, and passed it to me. The problem with this, apart from people thinking that if someone rolls and passes on an item, it should go to the next highest roller, was that the mage already had the trinket. Would still people still have been pissed off if that mage hadn’t had the trinket? I think so.
Now, I’ve never really been one to care much about my e-reputation, but I am kind of curious if you guys consider this ninja’ing. Be honest in your comments, I really don’t care. No one would have complained at all had the mage simply taken the item, and ticketed it to me. I have done that before with loot I wanted, but it takes too long and I have been burnt like that (paid the guy to ticket an item, I never got the item).
At any rate, and in closing, I’m trying to get some good discussions in here. I can see both sides of the argument, and argument I’ve chosen a side on. The real question is — if someone wins the roll on an item in a free rolls pug, are they at liberty to pass it to a specific person? A lot of people say no, but then, the simple solution is simply for the person to GM ticket the item to whoever they wanted to pass the item to. Patch 3.2 will fix this problem anyways, as people will be able to trade items they win to someone else that was in the same raid group when the boss was downed. It’s going to open up a lot more trading of BoP epics – ie – doing the same thing I did (paying someone to pass an item to you), except, no one is going to know.
Let me know what you guys think,
Macbook
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this sounds like a ninja to me. From the way i see it, if the mage had it already, and you had tried to loot it to him-he couldnt have equiped it as it was a unique item. Point blank-he shouldnt have been in the roll. And even HAVING rolled- he already had the item. So it wasnt his to give away. Also-he was in your guild…did you really not know he had the item? I guess that point is neither here nor there-just a thought after reading your blogs in the past…I'm not sure how you didnt know he had the item, or how he thought doing it this way (rolling, trying to win, and giving it to you) was right. Its not.
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Ultimately no matter what way you slice this-it is a ninja thing to do. If you're saying its right for you to-in a pug ran group-have someone else roll who has the item already but the pugs dont know it-and then have that person ticket the item to you…im sure that if this was seen as an acceptable practice that this would have been taken up in the game already by many other guilds who had to pug and had items drop that were apparently won by pugs. I'm sure we all would have heard of this practice long before this, as a legal and fair practice. Its pretty shady to me.
Sounds like this must have dragged out way past the minute or so that should have occured b/w rolls and giving the item to the winner-which seems to be the pug lock. First-it sounds like a few conversations went on b/w yourself and another in the group with the winner of the roll. Then when it was answered with a NTY, someone in your guild who was in the run decided to roll-well past the point of anyone else rolling. I find this strange that such a late roll was even allowed-and I myself would have questioned the late roll if I had been there-as well as questioned why suddenly a person in your guild decided to roll well past the other rolls and after a pug had won-and been asked to pass for money.
IDK. Sounds to me like you are trying to argue a moot point. In my book-this is a form of ninja
I think that qualifies it as a ninja'd item, Mac. Not only that, but you involved your guild mates in it. If the raid leader hadn't been sympathetic to your need for the trinket, would he have given it to a mage who already had it? If not, then I think you stepped across the line into ninja territory.
*my honest opinion as a neutral outside observer
It wasn't the mage's to give, since they already had the item equipped and would not have been able to equip a second one (therefore, they shouldn't have rolled for it in the first place.) So I agree with the other posters – it was a ninja thing to do, and I'd come away with that raid not only with bad feelings towards you, but towards your guild, that particular mage, and the raid leader. I wouldn't be shy about letting others know about it, either – especially if I wanted the item and I had had the second highest roll. Sorry, bud.
The only way this action is considered ninja'd in my book is if the Master Looter actually ignored every roll and looted it to you. Personally I don't allow for a person to pass on to a friend of theirs. I usually ignore that statement and say it goes to the next highest roll. When I really want an item from an instance I usually A. Announce that the item is saved to X person or B. Put a price on it to the winner of the item. Usually people will not go with option A. since they might want the item too but I try. Usually option B. isn't considered either because they want it as well. To me its not a ninja move on your part. But that's just my opinion. Ninjas tend to ignore everyone in the raid not only the people they know…
So what you're talking about is a Loot Council composed of. . . the highest roller. I would venture to guess that this was not the agreed upon loot distribution method. Therefore, I would view this as "ninja'ing". I actually don't have a problem with buying drops off of people. I think that in terms of personal value, if they value gold more than the item they are usually 1.) a fool and 2.) lazy. This type of person usually sells. If they value the item more, it would cost you a great deal more to buy it.
But you didn't buy the item. You changed the looting rules so that the odds were stacked in your favor. I'm not gonna lie, I've rolled on shit just to keep some craptastic loud-mouthed PuGger from winning a role when I didn't need the item. But I've never taken an item I already had a copy of. In fact, that mage couldn't even be looted the item. It's unique, not unique-equipped. Now we've stepped from ethically shady to just plain wrong. That's like a priest rolling on plate to give to their warrior friend.
No. You are assuming I know what gear all of my raiders have, which I don't. My guild doesn't run any pre-Ulduar content as a guild anyways, so it is virtually impossible to know what gear my guildies have.
I will address your other comments shortly as you had a few valid points in there, but this one isn't valid.
I have no way of knowing who has what gear, especially not on an item like the Dragonsoul, where everyone is rolling. I wasn't ML, but even if I was, is the ML expected to inspect everyone before looting an item?
Same as my initial comment. You are assuming here that I knew the winner of the roll already had the item.
This is a ninja. You lost the roll and tried to pay off the winner and when he refused you had the mage roll even though he already had it and then said that you paid him for it. The mage already had it so he is already excluded from the roll. You are a ninja just like the paladin you gkicked the week prior.
Yeah. This is your valid point. There was a good bit of time between the first roll and the mage winning the roll. I told the ML to wait since I was going to try to buy the item off the winner of the roll.
Honest opinion is gladly accepted. However, lets change the tables. Let's say the ML, and the mage who passed the item to me weren't guildies. Do you not think that the same QQ would have happened?
The real question at hand is — are people that win a roll allowed to decide who the item goes to? Most people are pressed on the fact that the mage already had the trinket, but even if he didn't and was simply willing to sell the item to me, don't you think this same problem would have occurred?
The general consensus here seems to think I'm a ninja, that's fine, but most people are either assuming that a) I knew the mage had the item and should have somehow excluded him from rolling, or b) something else (forgot what I was going to say).
Why is it a ninja thing to do? Let's say I didn't know the mage already had the item. Am I really to be held accountable for him passing it to me for 2k? Should I have somehow inspected him before the item appeared in my bags? Should I have said "Wait! Let me inspect this dude before you loot the item to me?".
"Personally I don't allow for a person to pass on to a friend of theirs."
Why not? If the mage that passed the item to me hadn't had it, and passed it to me, why couldn't he give it to me? If HE HADNT had it (which I now know he did), he could have accepted the item and ticketed it to me, and accepted the 2k I was offering to the highest roller.
Macbook-I cant believe you actually beleive you were right in this. I firmly beleive you just want the drama. You have been known to ninja items before (mislooting was one of the ways you used to ninja an item) and you have been known to pass loot to friends in a pug raid that was "free rolls" and stated as such. There IS no hypothetical way to make it correct. Changing the concepts as you try to do doesnt change the facts. A lock won it. You tried to buy it. Long after the rolls were done on all items, a guildie of yours rolled on it and won-despite having the item already. And…youre guild gave it to you. And not the second highest as is usual in free rolls. This. Is ninja'ing-albeit a less seen way. But equally wrong.
Then whats to stop a rogue from rolling on the trinket just because he wants to dictate who it goes to? IotDS is just as useless to a rogue as it is to a mage who already has one. If the mage was allowed to roll for an item he couldn't use and would be trading it for gold it should have been open rolls to all involved.
I would generally agree with you here, except I didn't change the looting rules. I DID buy the item from the person — every comment here is somehow holding me accountable for knowing that the person who won the roll actually had it.
Using your logic, you are saying it wouldn't have been a problem to have won the item if the mage who passed it to me didn't already have it. The fact of the matter is, of course I still would have gotten QQ over it.
All the comments here still haven't convinced me that I did anything wrong. Everyone is apparently blaming me or holding me accountable for the fact that the mage already had the item and because he was in my guild. What if the first person (the lock who wasn't in my guild) had won the item, didn't have it already, and had passed it to me? That wouldn't have been a problem?
Its different. The mage was allowed to roll because we didn't know he had the trinket beforehand. A rogue wouldn't be allowed to roll, well, because, rogues can't use the trinket.
My question still stands — If I make an offer to pay 2k to the highest winner, and someone who already has the item wins, why am I getting all the heat for it? Someone could have just as easily had the item in their bag, won the roll, and sold the item to me, or someone could have not really wanted the item (like a healer), and sold it to me.
Would people still have had a problem?
If you truly didnt know-and you are just finding out about how the mage had the item. Then why dont you right the wrong done here. While I dont beleive for an instant that you didnt know what was going on with a late roll from a guildie who ends up already having the item…I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Momentarily. So…knowing and hearing from others that this is wrong and that the mage HAD the Ilustration and shouldnt have been able to roll. Are you now going to do the right thing and give the item to the proper owner? The original winner of the roll?
Hahahaha. I didn't gkick any paladin — he gquit. As GM, I have only gkicked two people — one was an undergeared hunter and another was a guy who was applying to another guild.
I won't even bother discussing your comment because you are simply making guesses unsubstantiated by anything.
"(mislooting was one of the ways you used to ninja an item)"
I have no idea where that came from, I have never claimed to misloot an item in my life, at least that I can recall. I have had guild-related "ninja'ing" drama before, but one of them I wasn't raid leader or ML, and that's about the most I can recall.
Your logic here is still flawed, however. You somehow assume that I knew the mage had it. Are you saying that what I did wouldn't have been wrong if the mage hadn't had the item? Do you think buying BoP loot is wrong?
you cant deny the facts macbook. sorry. youre logic is flawed. You state that if you didnt know-it was ok. I dont buy that but no, it doesnt make it ok. If thats the case, why dont you get upset about the mage trying to ninja an item FOR you-and boot him from your guild or similarly punish him for his infraction? I also am saying that you admit this roll by the mage in your guild was well after all other rolls were over…If this was a mistake. Then are you going to correct it. Ultimately you, from my opinion, are just looking for a way to make it a "gray area". But quite clearly from this and the SS forum (which was deleted for some reason), most of the response is in the negative against you. Thoughts?
There are so many parties in the wrong here, it's rather shocking. First thing's first: I wouldn't call it a ninja, per se, but it was definitely not on the "up and up". You tried to roll, you failed. You tried to buy the roll, you failed.
I don't care whether the mage had the item or not. If you roll, the item is yours. If you pass, it filters to the next highest roll. It's pretty straightforward.
Instead, by your actions, you would suggest that everyone (regardless of class) could roll on all items and simply pass them to whoever they want. What's stopping me from rolling on tanking plate and passing it to my pally tank buddy? If the warlock had a rogue friend and he decided to roll and won, and then passed it to the warlock, would you have been okay with that?
The mage was irresponsible for rolling on an item he had; you were irresponsible for accepting the item; and the master looter was irresponsible for looting the item to you.
If you wanted to pull the GM ticket thing, you do so on your own terms, outside of the raid. If you're really so loot hungry as to engage in such shady tactics, fine, but wait for a GM like people with legitimate issues.
This is a pretty cut-and-dry issue for PuG groups. I don't think there's any way to argue this that puts you in the right.
Thank you for the temporary leap of faith. If this helps, this is pretty much exactly how it went down:
- Illustration linked in /rw, rolls ensue
- I tell the ML in Vent to be slow with the item, since I am attempting to buy it off the person
- Both ML and myself attempt to buy the item from the dude, its really not that long of a conversation (I'll give you 2k to pass to me, NTY)
- My displeasure is expressed in vent, mage rolls a 900, says, "pass to macbook", item is looted to me
The amount of time from when the mage rolled to when it was in my inventory wasn't enough for me to inspect, plus I was busy talking on vent and dealing with trying to buy the trinket off of the previous roll winner. While you probably won't believe me anyways, I definitely didn't know he had it already — believe it or not, while I do employ sometimes shady or gray areas to obtain what I want, I wouldn't feel right buying the item off someone who wasn't eligible to get it anyways.
Would I misloot it to the warlock? No. The e-reputation and guild name have taken a temporary hit, 2k is down the drain, what's done is done. I would probably still give the warlock the 2k I had promised him for the item, but that is about it.
The mage was definitely more in the wrong than you, but that does not absolve you of responsibility here. With you two being in the same guild, claims of conspiracy definitely have merit.
The rolls weren't actually over. The roll that the mage did was during the /rw countdown from 5 (right around the 3 mark). I do agree that it was done a decent amount of time after the bulk of the rolls.
I'm not concerned that most of the responses are negative against me. If I was, I would either have altered the story, not posted about it on my own blog, or deleted any comments that were against my point of view. However, that is not my goal, I wanted honest responses and I'm getting them. Still, no responses so far have convinced me that I was completely wrong.
Had the circumstances been different as in the other times I've purchased loot from the highest roller (ie – ML and guy that won the roll weren't guildies), I doubt I would be seeing as much stuff against me as right now. Like — if the warlock that was the second highest roller had passed the item to me for 2k, would I still have had all these problems?
Well, you are one of the people online who's opinions I respect the most (probably because we are mostly on the same page in terms of moonkin-related topics), so I'll see what I can reply here.
I'm not sure how my actions suggest that people could roll on things they can't use. Hypothetically speaking, if the mage hadn't had the item and had won the roll, would you have a problem with him selling it to me? That's my real question I have for everyone, since I did NOT know he already had the item. I've done this before — purchased loot from people that win the roll. The only thing different about it this time is that the winner had the item.
No one has answered my hypothetical situation. Say that the second highest roller had accepted my 2k. The guy didn't have the item, so it was essentially his item to determine if he wanted to sell. Would I have been in the wrong?
Disappointing. IDK. Too much argument from you is required for you to even make it sound potentially reasponable to a select few-and ultimately I still dont feel its right-though I appreciate your explanation. A few others in here brought up some good points: like anyone then being able to roll on ANY item. Regardless of need for said item, or the ability to use it. Thoughts?
How did the dragon hide bag roll go-out of curiousity? That is one item that is also unique-equipped and I frequently see raids state-"dont roll if you have it already".
Another question: was the mage in your vent? You said guildies were in vent…so I wonder about the talk there. IDK-I cant imagine that he would ever have been allowed to roll. I dont think anyone rolls if they have an item they cant equip. Greed-IF the person was only rolling for greed reasons and not just to potentially win an item for his GM- is a poor excuse in my book to roll. And if you offering money results in things like this happening in your raids…does this bother you?
The hypothetical situation didnt happen. I, for one, am only commenting on the situation that did.
I hate to hypothesize on what might happen if such-and-such situtation occurs under whatever circumstances. I can only hope that this does not truly occur in the game-and I would think that if it was discovered to occur in a guild -the person would be in trouble. I doubt an individual stays long in a guild rolling on items and winning items he already had. And if in a pug'd raid-the individual, if found out, would again be ostracized usually for his/her actions and in some cases-guilds punish those for such infractions due to the negative publicity that occurs towards the guild.
I mean, honestly, I'm not trying to win you over to my side or anything. If anything, I'm trying to see things from an unbiased (or relatively unbiased) point of view, because the thread on SS was just "omg ninja", and obviously I will be biased towards thinking I'm right.
I am not even aware how the dragonhide bag roll went — trust me I was swarmed with attacks as soon as I got the trinket that I could have cared less how that roll went.
I have no idea if he was on vent, to be honest. He doesn't have a mic, and I don't tend to check who's in channel since we were just hanging out anyways.
Given the fact that I've purchased loot at least 5 times and this has only happened once, I still don't think its going to change how I operate. It's worked out beautifully in the past, if anything, I simply won't do it on heavy-wanted items such as this one and stick to doing it when there are only like 1-2 other moonkins in VoA and a T8 piece drops, or things of that nature. At any rate, similar situations and BoP buying are going to be happening a lot more often when 3.2 hits, and we still don't have any ethical boundaries set.
Thank you for your responses (no sarcasm).
But it is important to hypothesize. Most of the people here commenting are putting me to blame for this since the mage already had the item, and everyone seems to think I somehow knew he already had it.
Which leads me to hypothesize. If he didn't have the item already, or if the warlock who was second highest had accepted my 2k offer, would I have been in the wrong? Its a valid question to hypothesize, I don't think its fair of everyone commenting to automatically assume that I knew the mage had the item already, therefore disqualifying is roll.
Personally I am a very straight forward raid leader when it comes to QQ. I will just simple kick the person who is annoying the raid and or me. When a person in my raid says I would like to pass on to X person I simple say you can't because the would go to the 2nd highest person. If the person wants to ticket it in after the raid is over to such friend I don't have any problem. I don't see any wrong doing on your part because you A. Didn't miss loot to yourself or B. Didn't have the ML miss loot it you. You simply went for option C. which was to buy the item off the winner like I do. Money comes easy to me as well having every profession in the game.
In the end anyone who doesn't like my rules while I am the raid leader has the right to leave. I always announce that before the raid so I can have the most minimal QQ possible.
Fair points, I'm similar when I lead raids in the fact that I kick people easily that don't like the way I operate, and have my loot rules macro that I spam 5-6 times before people get saved to my run.
I also ask simply little questions when they send me a whisper to see if I can invite them. I have issues with giving assist to people. I only give assist out to the tanks when we're already in the instance. I don't like people inviting people without me having a look at them.
If it happened the way you said it: no. because-if the warlock who was the highest ORIGINALLY had actually been going to be given the item and had acccepted your offer. then no-that would be fair. First-he rolled w/i the time limit, and he also didnt have the item.
On the forums it was stated that the mage rolled after all items had been finished rolling on. For the mage to even have rolled- it had to be more than a few minutes after the original rolls for the item had happened. First-there had to be discussion regarding who actually had won the roll. Sounds like the lock was decided upon as the winner. Second-there had to be a discussion b/w you and the lock about you giving 2k for the item. 3rd- a discussion b/w the ML and lock with ML offering 5k. Then, the guildie of yours decides HE'S going to try and win the roll-w/o mentioning he has the item already. And so he rolls after the item was already rolled upon, decided upon a winner, and winner was talked to twice about the item.
I can understand the suspicion of conspiracy. It was you, the ml who was a guildie named exilaryn from how it was said on the forums, and a guildie mage who rolled late, had the item already and gave you the item even though it was already won by the lock. Dont mess with the facts here. Hypothetical analysis unnecessary in this issue.
You're really taking a beating in these comments, but I see what you mean. Theoretically, it's conceivable that the mage did not have the item or that it was in his bags instead of equipped and so no one would know any better. Look, there is no doubt in my mind that the mage is the number one culprit here.
That said, that's not how it went down. The mage had the item equipped and rolled anyways. His bad. From the sounds of it, you have no interest in turning over the item to the rightful winner — that, to me, says you don't care about the questionable means of obtaining the item, so nothing that is said here will change your mind.
If it was me, I would have punished the mage and I would have opened a GM ticket to get the item to the warlock.
As for BoP buying — there can be only two solutions here. The first, that no one is allowed to buy/sell BoPs before the loot is distributed. What happens after raid (via GM ticket or in 3.2 via trade) is entirely between the two parties — buyer and seller. The second solution is that everyone is allowed to roll on all BoPs and distribute the item to whomever they choose. There is no middle ground. If I have a couple caster friends that I run with, why should they be able to win rolls for me while another caster who has melee friends does not have that advantage?
And, yes, the timing of the mage's roll does come into play. Again, it's his doing and he bears the majority of the blame, but your unwillingness to take action after the fact implicates you as well. As an outsider, it looks like a conspiracy — I can understand why people are pissed.
It really wasn't that long — sure, I will admit it was a little longer than the other items — I told the ML to slow on that item since I was trying to buy the item.
But — the winner had not yet been decided, and the roll that won was done during a /rw countdown.
I do the same thing actually, even on guild runs. No one has assist till I finish invites. I need to know everyone thats in the group.
Oh trust me, I expected to take a beating — I posted the link on the thread that the guy made in the realm forums, quoting the guy who said, "why don't you post about this in your gay blog". Lol.
I see your points, they are valid. From your comment, I can agree that my unwillingness to fix the situation implicates me, as well as the timing of the roll. That is it, and it makes sense. There is just no way I would care at this point to correct the issue — after a huge server forum thread (which has since been deleted), and all these comments.
That just means, going forward, and in 3.2, I should wait till after an item is looted before attempting to purchase it. That is my lesson learned from here. I can understand why people are pissed as well, but it just seems like people jump on the bandwagon, base their anger on facts unfounded and unsupported by any data available, and even go as far as to say that I have ninja'ed things via mislooting, which I have never done before.
I'm sorry macbook. You have ninja'd items. and you have mislooted before. Take it to the forums at SS and ask your fellow realm members yourself. I've tried to actually hold off judgment and making a decision on you and your guild in the past. I have been positive to most of your guildies when I see them. Point blank-I witnessed one incident in question where you did ninja an item. I also have a few friends who also have stated such-and are honest older players who rarely play-and those times it was also brought to SS forums. You are GM of this guild and dont care what happens. Im appalled that you honestly think this was a correct thing to do. Its convenient that 3.2 is coming and you use it as your fix to this. I'm sorry macbook-but it seems like you are trying to claim innocent-when I believe you arent. Not given the past actions that have been seen about you and your guild. Luck to you and your site though.
Sorry Mac, you are in the wrong here. This sort of action is just unfair, it exploits the other members of the group and invalidates what are considered fiar loot rules. I think it's fine to pay for a legit roll to pass to the next person, but not to pass the item to a specific person.
I can respect that if you think gear shouldn't be purchased in the first place.
Lol yeah, I makes us look like control freaks but who cares I like to keep everything in order until the raid is ready to start.
To me, a ninja is a person who circumvents the established loot protocols–whatever they are–to get loot for themselves or their friends. Offering to buy the high roller's loot is usually acceptable in most raids I've been in, and it sounds like it always is in your PUGs. That's cool as long as everyone in the PUG is told upfront, which it sounds like you're pretty conscientious about.
The general rule I've seen in every raid group everywhere is that you can only roll on something BoP if you can use it. That means that it must be both a) something you can equip (and would be useful for your class, i.e., no caster plate for your warrior, even though you can equip it–although they could make a "save" roll if they wanted to keep it for aesthetic purposes), and b) something that you don't already have one of if it is unique. So the mage was either a jerk or an idiot by rolling on it, by pretty much any raid standards. He then offered to pass and sell it to you when he won, which was very much a ninja action (getting cash when he shouldn't even have been rolling).
But at that point you hadn't done anything wrong. Since you didn't know that he already had one, you're fine to offer to pay him for it.
But here's the thing. Take for example the dragonhide bag from OS. If someone rolls on that without realizing it's unique (which happens in EVERY OS pug I've ever done), the next highest roller gets it: the original noob doesn't get to choose where it goes, or opt to sell it to someone else. So when it was discovered that the mage already had the trinket, it should've gone to the next highest roller.
If the mage HADN'T had one (your hypothetical example): then you're totally fine! He's perfectly free to pass it to you for cash (or even for nothing, in my opinion). It's cool that guildies work together in PUGs to get loot for their friends, even though the others might not be happy about it. If you're following the loot protocols, there's nothing that can be said about it.
But the problem is that since he did have one and you found out about it, you DIDN'T follow the established protocol in "oops I rolled when I shouldn't have" situations, which is to pass it to the next highest person. I'm assuming you already had been assigned the trinket when you discovered the mage already had one. If so, then a GM ticket should've been opened and the trinket given to the warlock. That would've been the non-ninja way.
I have a question for macbook on a comment you made "…So when it was discovered the mage already had the trinket, it should have gone to the next highest roller."
When did people find out if the mage even HAD the trinket. The way I understood it, it was never attempted to loot it to the mage. It was automatically stated that the mage wished to give it to Macbook. And was given to him w/o trying to give it to the mage-as would normally occur. The lock was was won the roll originally stated he looked at the mages gear and saw he had it already which is how he knew.
With that information in mind-I do question why the item was not attempted to be given to the mage-where it would quickly been discovered he already had it and then discussed amongst the raid im sure-and not after it was given to Macbook and the mage in question was inspected and found to already own the item prior to. The masterlooter would have known becuase the game would have told him the item coudlnt be looted to the mage when he already owns it-as a unique equiped item. The ML was also a guildie of yours and in vent with you…thoughts?
I don't actually see this as a problem. Since Macbook had made it known he was trying to buy it, if I were the ML there's no way I would've immediately given it to the mage who won. I would've waited to see whether he elected to sell his win to Macbook, as he ended up doing.
Think about it as though it were all on the up-and-up and the mage didn't have the trinket: if the ML had given it to the mage, and then the mage had said "Hey, I wanted to sell it to Macbook", that would've meant a GM ticket to be entered. That's annoying. I would definitely have waited to hear the results of the negotiation.
The question to this is why was a late roll allowed in the first place then. IF It was on the up and up. The loot winner was the lock-as agreed in raid. the discussion happened twice to the lock in that time after deciding who won the roll about if he would take payment to pass to macbook. He denied. Then-before they tried to loot to the lock-it was suddenly rolled upon by a mage in their guild. I would have been extremely suspicuous. And from the sounds of it it was VERY quickly decided to give it to the mage who gave it to Macbook. Why not a wait to discuss amost the raid members? The lock was upset enough to post about it-and I beleive one other posted as well. It sounds like NO time was given after the mage rolled. Why the hesitancy before? Why so quick when the mage rolls and wins after? Ultimately this is all just hypothesization. Macbook admitted to what happened. He doesnt question it being wrong-he just says he wont give it back. And he brings up a hypothetical question which didnt apply here.
I think the biggest question that we're all missing here…
Why so much drama over a trinket that's really not even BiS any more? Flare of the Heavens is hands-down best. Scale of Fates and Eye of the Broodmother are both better than Illustration. Both the Scale and the Eye are available to Mac, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Flare was too.
I've never seen the Scale drop
And I have the eye!
in unrelated news, XT 25 HM downed tonight
Sorry. This is a straight out ninja.
On my server PUG runs at least, there is a rule that you do not roll for something unless you personally are going to use it. That means none of that “pass it to my guildee” or “I will buy it off you” nonsense.
This is to get rid of those ninja attempts where a person gets his entire guild to roll on items they wont be using. After all, if you have five friends, thats like having 5 rolls against 1.
The more interesting question is, Mac, what are you going to do about it? =)
I am going to have to agree with Xiera here. They hit every point I was going to and as always is very well spoken.
It’s a fishy move and I wouldn’t want to group with these kinds of loot rules. I mean, this is a PuG right? The fact of the matter is that you’ve basically stacked 2 chances to win the loot (your roll and the mage) vs. the unguilded warlock. The person who talked about the OS 22-slot bag hits it right in the head. Pretty much the same scenario since the mage shouldn’t have rolled for the same trinket he already had.
The mage didn’t roll to improve his own loot. He rolled to help you out, effectively giving you two rolls.
You talk about unbiased views, but look at it from the lock’s POV. The lock wins the roll fair and square, and ignore all gold offers. Then, some random mage rolls and wins, passes it to a moonkin that rolled earlier (and lost). If you are fine with that, then you’re a ninja Macbook. The mage having the trinket or not doesn’t matter, and you not knowing ahead of time doesn’t matter. Say that the mage has 2 better trinkets, but still roll on the Illustration and passed his winning roll to you, that’s still a ninja.
Macbook did nothing. He acted in the ss trade like everyone was a fool. His guild had the orignal ninja thread deleted that was started by 2 of the pugs in the raid (one of the commenters was the warlock ninja'd from-who also was not the one who started the thread). The conversation continued between the stormscale community on his guild yogg down thread. Apparently THAT too was deleted sometime last night.
The illustration of the dragons soul IS best in slot for some players. Warlocks in particular are recommended that even if there is better trinkets out there-by certain stats-that the best combination still involves having Illustration of the Dragons Soul with the Flare of the Heavens. And for some players….HM ulduar probably is unlikely anytime soon for their guilds. I would have been just as upset as the warlock ninja'd from given that I have been trying to get it since December. And I have been ninja'd from before on that very item.
Lol — I can assure you that at least personally, I haven't had the threads deleted. Like I'm saying, if I wanted to keep this on the DL I wouldn't post about it on my blog that gets over 1000 unique readers per day z.z
Of course I'm not going to do anything at this point. The drama has happened already, what's done is done. Nobody cares to hear about what someone did to fix something — drama is more fun than a happy ending.
The hypothetical situation applies, since its more of a true situation — I claim it as hypothetical just so I don't have to hear "but that didn't happen".
The facts, which you can choose to believe or not:
- I didn't know the roll winner had the item
- We never attempted to loot the item to the winner because I said on vent I was buying it from him
- To be honest, I never found out the roll winner even had the item till the forum thread was created and I armoried him. I don't inspect people all that often.
I do question this situation being wrong. You, and a few other people here agreed that if the mage hadn't had the trinket, there would have been no problem, since he could have either ticketed it to me or simply passed it to me.
If you (even for just a second), believe that I didn't know the mage had the trinket, then I was not in the wrong to have accepted the trinket. If you believe that, then the only thing that I am wrong for doing (or not doing) — is not trinketing the item to the warlock.
Am I going to do it? No. I've said it before, I'm down 2k, there's already enough drama, giving it back isn't going to help for shit.
Agreed, it was unfair rolling, as described here. I'm wondering if there were unclear details or situations that were unintentionally lefto ut, or said in a way that you didn't intend here… if not, it's a minor ninja offense. Clear-cut case for it too.
The right analogy here is stolen property. If you buy stolen property no one blames you. But when you find out that you have stolen property you don't get to keep it.
You say that after all of the beating your taken you not going to give it back makes it even worse. You have had multiple opportunities to do the right thing. You had the opportunity to return it when you found out the mage should have never rolled, and you have had the opportunity after all these comments. I don't know whether you have ninjed stuff in the past or not. But it seems to be clear to me that you ninjed here, you know you ninjed it, and you still won't make the situation right. That makes you an evil person. Period. You have a rotten heart. Good people do what's right when given the opportunity, they don't thumb their noses at the truth.
Dude, you’re a thief. You know damn well if you’d won the roll on it in that pug and then someone tried to buy it off you, and when you said no had his friends roll until one of them won and passed it to him, you’d be calling him a ninja all day long.
You lost. You stole. That’s all. The rest is you trying to justify it. Just accept that you’re a thief and try and determine whether or not you’d steal things you wanted in the real world too.
[quote] …then the only thing that I am wrong for doing (or not doing) — is not trinketing the item to the warlock.
Am I going to do it? No.[unquote]
Thats all I needed to know. I disagree with your lack of morals. Unsubbing.
In a somewhat related story, I was in Ulduar-10 this weekend with a PuG. We downed Razorscale and the Eye dropped. Naturally, myself, the other moonkin (really awfully geared and doing sad DPS), and the mage were wetting ourselves. We're waiting for the Raid Leader/Master Looter to start rolls, we're typing in chat and talking in Vent about whether we're going to be rolling, etc.
Two minutes later, I say screw it, and type "Roll <other item> main set", people roll, someone has a high roll and no one else is rolling, so I move onto the Eye — "Roll [Eye of the Broodmother] main set". I roll a 50-something and the mage rolls a 99 (other rolls were lower than me). I was quite disappointed, but whatever, I guess we'll get on with the raid, where I don't need anything else, that's fine.
Well, the raid leader/master looter gets back and asks people to roll again on the mail whatever-it-is and the same person happens to win, no big deal. Then he has us reroll on the trinket. I roll a 60-something and have the highest roll and the mage hasn't rolled yet. He's talking in raid chat about how he already won. The raid leader says "no one else should be distributing loot, so roll". He starts counting down, the mage rolls and it's lower than me. The raid leader loots me the item.
So I'm kinda thinking that makes me a borderline ninja (for not turning the item over to the mage), though I didn't know the raid leader, did not talk to the raid leader, etc. At the time, I was just playing by the rules (or is that just how I justified it to myself?). So, yeah, have I joined the ranks of ninja-ness?
I honestly dont think your a ninja b/c the mage won the roll unique or not he could have had it just woulda been a total dick move to have taken the second one, but in all fairness never the less he won the roll and the trinket is his to do with weather he chose to give it to you or keep it himself and maybe d/e it, this is not being a ninja, being a ninja it taking stuff ignoring other people's rolls or just getting someone to loot it to one specific person no matter what, you pay people off for the item they are getting gold vs the gear this is not being a ninja its just paying for a item.
Nah. The un-written but implied rules of raid leading and master-looting are fairly simple. The ML leads the rolls, and generally speaking, rolls done before an item is linked the the ML/RL are invalid. The mage who won will probably always hate your guts, and I am still unsure what I would have done in this situation (either from your shoes or the RL's). I probably wouldn't have initiated rolls since I wasn't ML, and as ML, I PROBABLY would have re-done rolls as well.
For all the knowledge you try to impart on your blog (not alway right, but entertaining), I can't believe you actually have to ask if this was wrong. In every since of the word it is. You completely pressured and then altered the rules to get what you wanted. I know you will lose a few readers (i already know I unsubscribed to your blog after reading this). I really feel for the guilides that got involved and feel the 'pressure' of 'helping' their GM. But nothing can be done about it now. Hope you're happy with the trinket. You seem to be happy with the idiotic decision you made. Good day.
Macbook, I have to agree with both sides of the arguement. I understand how you can want a peice of gear, but if any other person you went on a run with rolled and won an item that they already had, that you did not need, they would have been punished in some way. I don't want to be rude, but don't let wanting an item cloud your judgement, that mage had no right to roll, and in turn you got an item that someone else needed. (On an offnote, I would pass on any peice of gear for 5kg!)
I don't really try to impart that much knowledge on people. This blog is meant to chronicle my own personal story and findings, and serve more as a source for discussion. I don't really theorycraft.
Its funny you feel for the guildies that you assume feel "pressured". I assure you that there was no pressuring, more of a joking attitude on vent that I would pay 2k gold for the trinket if someone won. My guild doesn't really have any real GM respect — we all bag on each other as equals all day.
Losing a few readers is a price I'm prepared to pay for blogging about the truth. I could have just as easily NOT blogged about this topic, deleted any comments (if any) that mentioned said topic, and none of you guys would have known. But that's not how I operate.
On a similar note, my subscriber count is actually at a record high
Good day to you too!
Mac
I think the biggest problem has to do with equippability or even possession. The winner of the roll not only couldn't equip his won item, he couldn't even hold it in his bag. That's the problem for me. Not that you bought it off of someone. You essentially had someone who could not use the item (and I'm not talking use in terms of "increase dps" or "good for the class", but rather physically equip it in the game) roll on the item to increase your chances of winning once you had, for all practical purposes, lost. It's like drawing a 6th card at poker because the 5 you have won't get it done. Come 3.2 (today) it won't matter and I expect to see much more of this behavior, but it is not something I will partake in even though I have the funds to do so.
You used the key word there. "Someone could have just as easily had the item in their bag, won the roll, and sold the item to me, or someone could have not really wanted the item (like a healer), and sold it to me. "
They had to hold it in their bags to transfer it to you via ticket. This mage could not have done that. Whatever goes on under the table most likely stays there, so we're really talking about two different situations. One where someone wins an item and later transfers it to you and another where someone dictates the recipient of the loot while being unable to actually possess it himself. Were I the raid leader I would have issued it to the person with the highest roll and allowed whatever dealings to happen after that point via ticket. If this had happened, it would have been discovered the the mage could not receive the item and the item would have defaulted to the next highest roll.
That's why I say you changed the loot system and that's why I think it was wrong. It went from a highest roll wins system to a highest roll determines the recipient. Can we stop trading under the table after the raid? Of course not. But that is certainly not the agreed upon distribution method for loot.
And this is why I hate pugs – because people actually believe that it's ok to broker deals like this between their guildies or friends to ensure than noone other than themself is going to get this item. Imagine the people who legimitately rolled for Illustration of a Dragons Soul, who desperately needed this trinket, who had turned to pugs because they had little other option – ok so they may never get to find out the lies and deception behind this trickery but they have been robbed pur and simple. Ninja is too sweet a word for this it's just plain theft. I pass on gear if I feel it's better for someone else, sometimes I regret this but I play fair and straight and I can only hope that other players do the same instead of acting like greedy spoilt brats who have to have the lastest gizmo at all cost.
You don't have to ask, you know the truth.
Is this an out an out ninja ? Hell yes. I'll come back to this at the end, but first. Buying items off people who win rolls…
This practise should never be done, on two occasions when i've won items (journeys end and the valor helm token) i was offered large sums of gold for each. Now, i have about 3g to my name at the best of times so the gold was a real incentive to me and i considered it, but for all of about 2 secs.
If you rolled on an item, won it, with the sole purpose of selling it on you are a ninja. To win an item, and then sell it on rather than use it you are a ninja. If you roll on an item in a raid, you are basically saying "I will use this item, i want this item to increase my performance"
The problem with people buying items is it encourages bad habits, as seen by that mage. Did you pay the mage the gold as discussed in vent ? i suspect you did, which makes this even worse. That mage could never use the trinket, the only reason he rolled was to a) give it to you and b) the gold. You paid someone to take, i'd even go so far to use the word steal an item off someone who fairly won the roll.
Like i said, is that an out and out ninja ? Yes. The mage ninja'd the item. he could not use the item since he already had it equipped, he rolled on the item, then gave the item to you, despite the warlock winning the roll. Whats worse is you're a GM, if this had been me i would have correctly passed the item to the warlock and reprimanded the mage.
Treat puggers as you would your guildies, you never know when you might be in a guild with that warlock. Or find yourself applying to a guild where that warlocks a member
If hit tv show "My Name Is Earl" has taught us anything, its karma's a bitch. and with such a popular blog,and seeing as you claim to care about your rep, I'm surprised you haven't responded to these comments. We all make mistakes, takes a bigger person to apologise for them
100% ninja – no question – not even close. I will stop reading now.
I didn't read all 72 comments because that's a lot of comments. And I don't know how much the arguments have changed, but here's my opinion:
No, this was not a ninja. In my opinion, anyway. You didn't know the mage had the item, and he passed it to you. IMO, the person who wins the item can do whatever they want with it.
The arguments that state that Ballerkin is implying that just anyone could roll on any item and pass them to other people are not worth discussing. Rogues rolling on IotDS? Pfft.
If the warlock had won the item, and passed it to the author of the post, it still wouldn't be a ninja, but yes, people would still QQ about it. The whole thing is magnified by the fact that the mage was in your guild.
No doubt, it seems a little shady, but supposing that you didn't know the mage had the item already then you aren't a ninja, imo.
I know in a group for brewfest boss we had a guy hurry and change loot to master looter before the boss went down and he got the mount.. this to me, is definitely a ninja! I reported his butt on wowjackass.com but it sucks, he's running around in dalaran with his shiny new mount. I have noticed him getting a ton of votes from wowjackass.com for being exactly that, a jackass.
Ive only read the first page of comments so i might not be in the moment, however; i would just like to state that i think it is perfectly acceptable to roll for something for a friend. I mean, you want to improve your friends so that you have better people to play with , although, i think that if the mage had just whispered the ML this wouldve all gone better.